We are fortunate to live in a location that boasts many great hiking, backpacking, camping, fishing, hunting, gold panning, and 4 wheeling opportunities, just to name a few… But most of these areas are far from secret. Many of the people that grew up in this area have, since childhood, spent considerable time in the local National Forests pursuing various recreational activities. Unfortunately for some of these people, or rather for those of us exposed to their "fall-out", their sense of ethics towards the back country, and thoughtfulness for other outdoor enthusiasts, was either never taught to them, or taught by family or friends that were sadly lacking in an understanding of basic outdoor ethical considerations. For the most part we try to avoid the better known, easier to get to, and most heavily visited areas of our local National Forests, often times going way out of our way to find remote and private areas where we are less likely to have to deal with "Campers behaving badly"… But try as we might, we sometimes just cannot avoid all the "plonkers", "dunderheads", and dipsomaniacal "outdoorsmen" that think they own the place. Undoubtedly many of you have had similar experiences, and if you are so inclined, I suggest that we share them here… I'll offer up the first one: About 5 years ago (2009) while out looking for a secluded spot for one of our next camping trips we found this mostly unknown lake up at 10,500 ft. on the Grand Mesa. By unknown I mean that it isn't named on most maps and is shown as an "intermittent body of water" on the USGS topo. It is accessible by a narrow one lane jeep trail that offers less than a handful of places for vehicle bypass along its 4 mile route. As one of the highest reservoirs on the Grand Mesa it isn't typically drawn down completely by its water rights holder, but it is drawn down often enough to make it a non-stockable body of water according to the Colorado DOW. During a really harsh winter it isn't big enough or deep enough to avoid 90% + die-off… Consequently it isn't a popular fishing lake. Also it only has two real campsites on opposite sides of the lake which are accessible by completely separate and distant jeep trails. But the fishing part aside, it is one of the most beautiful spots on the Grand Mesa… And interestingly enough, about the only spot within about an ~11 mile radius that actually has a cell phone signal. Eventually, after visiting it numerous times in the next few years, we decided on this lake as the site of our late summer, 2011, nine day camping trip. We arrived at the top of the Mesa at around 9 am on a Tuesday morning in late August, and turned onto the access trail up to our chosen lake. We dropped off our 5x8 cargo trailer (that carries all of our gear) in a large pull out at the bottom and headed up to the lake to scout for any other vehicles that we may meet on the way up and to verify that the one and only campsite at the lake accessed by this road was unoccupied. Once everything checked out and we were sure we had the access road to ourselves we went back and hooked up the trailer and eased up the 4 rugged miles and 600 vertical feet to one of the sweetest campsites on the whole Grand Mesa. Now we are far from minimalist campers, in fact much the opposite… but by 4:30 pm we had everything set up and settled in for a nice long stay. Wednesday and most of the day Thursday we had the lake to ourselves with only a visit from a solo ATV rider that came up to fish off the far end of the dam for a couple hours Thursday afternoon. We hiked around the lake both directions, photographed scenery and wild mushroom species, watched a mama moose and her calf wading the inlet end of the lake, and basically just hung out and relaxed. About 4 pm Friday afternoon things changed… Without warning two big pickups pulling pop-up campers and a third pickup pulling a double ATV trailer showed up. Now I need to stress that there is only one campsite on this side of the lake and although it is large enough for our 2 large tents, our trailer and S-10 Blazer, there is just barely enough space left over to park a couple other vehicles. The occupants of the three pickups turned off their engines and sat there and stared at us for 5 minutes or so. They got out and huddled up and had a discussion… Obviously they weren't happy. A couple of them approached my wife and I… The one fellow asked me where we were from and then asked us if we were getting ready to pack up? What? I informed them that we are from Grand Junction and that we would probably be packing up the coming Wednesday or Thursday. He then informed me that they were "energy field" workers out of Parachute/ Battlement Mesa… And that we were in their camping spot. I just laughed. Then the other guy proceeded to tell me that the previous summer they had cleared out the area that we were set up in, that they had built the fire ring that we were using, and even went so far as to tell me that the fire wood we were burning had been gathered by them a couple weeks earlier. I was dumb-struck… I told them that basically they were full of baloney. Then the first guy asks me if we would mind leaving and that they would help us pack up our camping gear. Again I politely told him that we were staying until the middle of the next week. They stared me down for a minute or two and went back over to their pickups and huddled up again. Then I saw the first guy take something out of his pickup, he fiddled around for a minute or two and then approached me again. This time he had strapped on a western style holster rig and when he walked back up to me I noticed that it carried what appeared to be a "Ruger Single Six" or some other cowboy style .22 revolver as witnessed by the cartridges in the ammo loops. He then proceeds to hook his thumb into the belt behind the holster and informs me that there are five of them and only one of me, and that if they wanted to, they could force us to leave. What a dill weed! Little did he know that I had a 1911 Colt Combat Commander, (cocked and locked) tucked into my waist band at the small of my back, and that my 45-70 1895 Guide Gun was just about 10 steps away inside the tent's open vestibule. (Buttt… There's no fricken way I'm going to get into a gun fight over a stupid campsite... If I can help it!) So I calmly told him that yes, they probably could force us to leave, but the first thing I was going to do when I got back into town, was to contact the USFS Rangers, and then file a complaint with the Mesa County Sheriff's Office. Their choice… Either drive away, or get their sorry butts arrested… "Oh, and by the way"… I turned 360… Pulling up the back of my shirt… "I'm not impressed", I said, pointing at his "six shooter". He mumbled a few choice obscenities at me and walked away. They huddled up again and then got into their pickups, and after much diddling around, they managed to get their little caravan turned around and left. My wife was trembling, and extremely nervous for the rest of the evening. We made a very quick dinner and built the fire up a bit bigger than normal. Finally we went to bed, but neither of us slept much that night. The next day things were pretty much back to normal but we didn't stray beyond eye sight of our camp. Middle of the afternoon an older couple riding a couple of ATVs showed up. The guy waved at me and motioned me over. I thought he was going to ask me about the fishing or something, but instead he asked me about how we had gotten up here. I told him that we had used the same road that they had. He then informed me that there was a large tree dropped across the road about 1-1/2 miles down below. What??? He offered to give me a ride back down to see for myself. I took him up on his offer…. And sure enough there was a 22"+ diameter "live" fir tree cut down and dropped squarely across the jeep trail where it crossed a steep side hill. The ATVers had managed to lop off some branches on the uphill side to get their ATVs under it… but just barely. There was no way to get a full size vehicle past it… no way, no how! He then took me back up to our camp. We thanked them for the "heads up' and then invited them to have dinner with us which they did. When they left they offered to call someone if we wanted…. I gave them a friend's phone number and told them that we actually do have cell phone service at this particular spot and that I'd have to call my friend and ask him to bring up a chain saw…. But that they could call him just to check that we had managed to call out, and that it probably wouldn't hurt to try to get a hold of the USFS... But being the weekend that might be difficult. They wished us luck and left. About 7:30 that evening, I called my friend in Palisade and explained to him our situation. He said he'd be glad to come up with his chain saw the next day (Sunday) in the early afternoon. He said he'd call back tomorrow when he got to Collbran, which is the last place before heading up onto the Mesa where there is a "for sure" phone signal. Just after noon the next day my cell phone rang and my friend was approximately 45 minutes out. I gave him brief directions (since he is very familiar with the Grand Mesa) and told him I'd be waiting for him at the downed tree. I threw a few tools into the Blazer and headed down to wait for him. As I rounded the last blind corner before the side hill my mouth fell open. The tree blocking the road was gone… Well most of it anyway. The top 20% plus the limbs were scattered on the downhill side of the jeep trail and the road was covered with saw chips. I kinda felt like a dolt… my friend didn't even have to make the trip up here. I drove down the trail another 3/4 of a mile or so to one of the few turn-a-rounds and waited. In a bit, my "rescuer" showed up and I explained to him the strange turn of events. He said that just as he was turning onto the access road (that turns into this jeep trail) a pickup loaded with firewood and pulling a trailer of firewood was just pulling out onto the main Forest Service road. He didn't think too much of it since it was firewood cutting season and this area was known to have a lot of "standing dead". I apologized and asked if he wanted to come up and see our camp anyway. When we got to the place where the tree had been felled we got out and looked around and after he saw the stump, we agreed that it was a huge stroke of luck that someone else had taken care of the "road block". We rumbled back on up to our campsite, and shared a late lunch… After a cold beer to finish things off, he headed back to town. The rest of our trip was uneventful except for a visit on Monday afternoon from a Forest Ranger. He was following up on the phone call that was on their message machine from the guy on the ATV. He said they had also gotten an anonymous complaint that there were "squatters" camped up at this lake. We explained when we had arrived and when we were leaving and he agreed that our stay was well within the duration limits for dispersed camping in this National Forest. We also described the encounter that we had had with the men on Friday, and told him that I suspected that they were the ones that had dropped the tree across the trail and that they were also quite likely the anonymous caller. The Ranger agreed. I asked if since we had written down a couple of the license plate numbers, if there was anything we or they could do about it. He said that since they hadn't actually forced us to leave and since the "menacing" was only implied, that the only thing they could possibly pursue was the tree felling incident… And since there were no witnesses, that wasn't in the cards either. He did say that we could possibly talk to the Mesa County Sheriff's Department in regards to the menacing issue, but it would most likely boil down to their word against our's... He did say he thought we lucked out in terms of the firewood cutters removing the road block, but that he had brought up a chain saw just in case. We offered him a Diet Pepsi which he accepted before he left… And for the rest of our stay we only saw a couple of ATVers, and a lone horseback rider. So as we planned, we packed up and headed back to town on Thursday. I do think there are at least several morals to this story: 1. As much as you might hate to admit it, having a cell phone handy when camping is a good thing. 2. Before you haul all your gear and trailers up that jeep trail to that special camp site, you should scout it out first to make sure the way is clear and that special campsite is unoccupied. 3. If you are planning on instigating a "gun fight"... A single action .22 revolver is a poor first choice. 4. One man's road block is another man's firewood. 5. Most "Law Enforcement" is basically worthless, especially in the back country. 6. Being "armed" in the back country is another good thing. 7. BE THERE… OR BE SQUARE!
Wow, we've met a few jerks but nothing like that bunch. The best I can do to add to this thread is repeat my tale about the woman taking a crap right in the middle of a high traffic family trail or the time someone stole my hanging food sack 10 miles from the trailhead.
Stm, Thanks for sharing your story. You handled it the way I would have handled it when I was younger. Now I am older and have less testosterone. I also believe that people have changed. There are many more crazy people. I would have let them have the camping spot. Not only that, but drillers and rough necks are a very rough crowd. I have been around them a lot. It is highly likely that they had much more firepower that you did not see. My worst camping nightmare in the last 25 years happened at Lake Shasta, CA. Five us paddled all day to a secluded boat in camping spot. We were there for 2 1/2 days, when I looked down the lake a saw an enormous houseboat steaming toward us. It was a boat load of at least 25 college kids from the U of Oregon. I had a talk with them and asked that they be respectful of the other people that were there first. There were about 4 other campers in the area. The boat guys said no problem. There were big problems until at least 0200. They were playing hip-hop music from the top of the houseboat at 100 decibels. The lyrics were the worst I have ever heard. Graphic sexual stuff at high volume. How could those girls put up with that? It was the worst night camping of my life and there was nothing I could do about it. We couldn't leave because the sides of the lake are steep with no place for miles where we could go ashore, much less try to sleep. I talked to them in the morning. I was not nice and they did nothing. The Ducks suck. I am a third generation of U of Washington alumnus.
I've run into some situations that usually involved noisy groups partying nearby, but nothing like what you described. You ran into a bunch of real A holes. That's pretty scary, I'd have been looking over my shoulder the rest of my stay. One of the worst I experienced was in the Adirondacks. We were there for a 5 day paddle camping trip on the Bog River and Lows Lake. There is a lake along the access road with a few drive up campsites. We got up there too late to hit the water so spent a night at one of the campsites along the lake shore. All was fine until just after dinner. We were enjoying a quiet time in front of the fire when a few cars pulled up in the site closest to ours. A bunch of late teens or early 20 somethings got out and made a racket setting up. Then it really started, loud music, loud voices and fireworks (bottle rockets, firecrackers, M80's) until the wee hours of the morning. About midnight I walked over and asked them to quiet things down and they apologized, then went right back to their party and kept things up past 3 am. We packed up early the next morning to drive to the put in and their camp was dead quiet...they were probably sleeping it off. I considered driving into their site as close to their tents as possible and leaning on the horn for minute, but my wife talked me out of it.
I believe you are referring to Horseshoe Lake. I 'm pretty sure these idiots left their trash there also! I stayed at the first campsite one night and there was toilet paper all over on top of the ground. The slobs were too lazy or afraid to go into the woods and dig a cat hole. Back to the issue, I had inconsiderate fishermen in front of my campsite on Moose Pond until 3 AM cussing up a storm!
In the last 55 years, I cannot count the number of times at a USFS campground that people nearby have stayed up late drinking, swearing, telling stories and keeping everyone awake. Many working people only have the weekend. They go camping for Friday and Sat night and the first night they blow off steam. You can either get up and join them or get up and do something else. Asking them to be quiet is very risky and I no longer recommend it. Camping during the week as a retired person is much easier. The working people are at work. The campgrounds are much less crowded with more room. RV parks are the quietist of all. Lights are out by 2130. Trust your gut instincts. Do not provoke anyone as it is too dangerous now. Move if you have to and live to camp another day.
Stm, I have thought about your story a lot. I still think you should have left. Challenging 5 guys is always a bad idea especially when you are there with your wife. I have a Colt 1911which is a wonderful sidearm, but I would think twice about brandishing it. You could easily have been beaten to within an inch of your life, and lots of things could have happened to your wife. Your truck could have been destroyed. We live in a gun culture in the US. I am firmly immersed in it. Many people have learned their conflict resolution skills from Clint Eastwood and that can really be a serious mistake. Would you react the same way next time?
The worst I have had was a few years ago. My borther and I took my dad camping for Father's day. Got a great site next to the Chattoga River off a jeep trail. That night we had a group of folks in pull up into the site next to us and were playing heavy metal and shooting their guns into the air (which is a different topic all together) and drove their big old trucks across the river a few times just because they could.
I've thought about this a few times since reading it. No one wants their trip ruined, and no one wants to look like a wimp for leaving, either. Very nerve racking encounter. It's good to have a gun, and better when you don't have to use it. Im not going to say what YOU should have done... Me? I think I would have left. I would have been worried the whole night that they would come back and do something. A holes with a point to prove often don't want to let things go. Better for me to find a different site and not worry about someone with a chip on their shoulder seeking revenge. But that's just me... Glad you made it through without any actual violence.
Would have PPine but by the time they started shooting everyone in our camp was past the point of driving. So we just did not say anything and stay in our camp and left in the morning.
We had a somewhat unpleasant experience this weekend. We were camping at a state campground where the sites are boat in or walk in only. No cars. It's a 3-6 mile hike or a 2-3 mile boat ride depending on your site. You'd think this would weed out some of the riff-raff and it usually does. The sites have only a fire ring and are spread out so that you can barely see your neighbors, giving it an almost wilderness like feel. This is why we like camping here. You can't see your neighbors but you sure can hear them. About 10 pm our closest neighbors started blasting Polish techno music. They must have packed in a huge boom box to obtain that volume. After almost an hour of this my wife and I were about to walk up there and say something, but someone else camped nearby had beat us to it and they lowered the volume considerably. Then they proceeded to party until the wee hours with noisy conversation and laughter. I woke up at 4 am to find a tree to water and they were still at it. The next night was a different story. I suspect someone in authority had a word with them because we didn't hear much more than normal conversation. That or maybe they were still too hungover to talk much above a whisper.
ppine.... (BTW... How's things?) I grew up in a mining town 15 miles from Sturgis... back in the 60's and 70's the outlaw biker clubs would try to come up take over Main Street and the Main Street bars. Notice I said try... Most "Deadwoodians" were practicing very blatant "open carry" for most of the month of August... starting during the "Days of 76" and lasting till about a week after the motorcycle rally. My dad was the regional police firearms instructor, and about as big of a fire arms enthusiast as Charlton Heston.... My younger brother was a top ranked NRA junior rifle competitor.... even my mom shot competitively on the ladies pistol league. I was more into mountaineering and rock climbing but did manage to shoot qualifying scores during certification tests that my dad proctored when I was in my late teens. My brother went on to be the CAO and "second seat" shooter on the USMC's shooting team and during his attachment to that duty station they won "The Dogs of War" match.... one of the few times that the Marine Corp shooting team actually beat the much more heavily funded US Army shooting team. He retired after 23 yrs as a Master Gunnery Sargent. I shot IDPA for 3 yrs in New Mexico, but lost interest when the local club decided to switch over to IPSIC and full race 1911 clones became all the rage. So... in a nutshell... I grew up in, and still participate to a moderate degree, in the gun culture that you refer to.... That being said... The last thing I ever want to have to do is participate in a real gun fight... but if it ever did come to that I'm betting that I'm much better prepared that most hoodlums and bully-boys.
Better prepared maybe, but outnumbered by 5 to 1 with no help in sight. Plus you would put your wife in jeopardy. Really skilled people that carry guns rarely get in fights. It is just like really skilled martial artists. They are fully aware of the consequences of engagement. It gives then the confidence to negotiate their way out of conflict. Be one of those people.
I highly agree with this statement! Always try to negotiate to a peaceful end, but be prepared to end a hostile situation with extreme force of violence.
Where I do I start? I live in New Jersey, the most crowded state in the country, in the biggest metropolitan area of the country, known for it's rude, crude and loud people...and a good portion of them file into campgrounds within a 100-200 mile radius on most weekends between Memorial Day and Labor Day (or they head down to my part of the world, The Jersey Shore ). So more often than not, what I run into is "campers behaving badly. " It's more the exception than the rule when I get a peaceful camping experience and usually that happens during the week or in the "shoulder seasons" of spring and fall or winter. Bad campers are what drove me to take off days during the week so I didn't have to contend with weekend crowds and bad manners. Bad campers in campgrounds are a major reason for me to have taken up backpacking and kayak camping..to get away from crowded campgrounds filled with people who feel a compulsion to yell (WHY do people have to YELL so much when they camp?), stay up all night partying, blast their horrible music (I like heavy metal music myself but don't feel I need to subject everyone else to it), let their kids run amuck and their dogs bark constantly day and night. Sometimes it's a matter of "It wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all". This past April (not even the summer season yet) I camped out in the NJ Pinelands at a state campground. I had the entire campsite pretty much to myself, even on the weekend. But sure enough, that Saturday night the RV park next door decided to have a live band and blast music for hours. A few times I've actually moved my campsites..One when a family thought it was cute and funny to allow their kids to stand on the side of the lake and yell constantly, I literally picked up my freestanding tent and moved it to the other side of the campground. Another time at a very nice private riverside campground that I'd had to myself the night before, a huge group of people invaded and blasted techno/disco music to 3 am I postponed my reserved kayak trip by a day, packed up a day early and found a hotel room. When I had asked those people to turn down their music they said "But we're CAMPING!!". They were kind enough to offer me a beer. The owners didn't seem to give a damn, despite their supposed "quiet hours" of 10pm-8am, these were their "regular" customers so they pretty much ignored it. They had my money so it didn't matter to them that I was one unhappy customer. Weekends, especially on Saturdays, are when the problems crop up. It's always the same. Great camping when I get there on a Wednesday or Thursday. Quiet..no problems. Then it gets worse on Friday and a horror show on Saturday. By Sunday it quiets down again. So it's 2 days of Hell. It's always this way. On the Delaware River, I hit the same thing..Great camping Wed and Thursday nights. Friday the yelling and crowds start but aren't horrible yet. Then comes Saturday. On one trip I got greedy and instead of finishing up my trip on Saturday afternoon, as I'd planned I wanted to take advantage of the beautiful weather, so I decided to camp a few miles from my take out spot on Saturday night. I stopped early, got a nice campsite. All was fine until about 6pm with myself and a few fisherman camped along the river. Then two canoes full of college age dudes pulled up. No campsites available? No problem, they jumped on the island I was on (despite it having only one site) and had themselves an all night party, with yelling, music and fireworks. At least they stopped around 1 am. It was obvious that they had rented the canoes for an overnight trip, loaded it up with beer and headed out to the first dry land they could find. There was little I could do due to it being free, primitive campsites along the Delaware River. No staff or rangers to call so it was grin and bear it and make a mental note not to camp down that far in the more populated area on a Saturday. But even when there is a campground and rangers things happen: First time I went camping at Lake George with my family we got a campsite that just happened to be in between two groups of campers who were obviously together. Why didn't they get to adjacent campgrounds? I guess they liked the idea of literally using our campsite as a means to get from one of their sites to the other. They were literally WALKING through our campsite...Not once or twice or even 3 times but constantly. Fortunately I got that "Jersey attitude" so I told them "No way is this going on anymore or you're paying a toll." They stopped and started going through the woods or taking their boat back and forth. But still..it rather stunk to deal with that. The next morning, one of them wandered up to my tent at 7am and starting YELLING ACROSS OUR CAMPSITE my ex husband had to literally keep me from getting out of the tent and doing bodily harm to that idiot. (So much to tell..here goes Part 2)..
