Colorado Massacre

[Lamebeaver]

12 people lost their lives as a direct result of loosing their personal freedom.
58 others almost did and the entire theatre has something to think about.
JMO,
DC

Do you think these 12 people would still be alive if we passed another law?

Even Gov. Hickenlooper (D) disagrees with this.

Hickenlooper told ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week" that Holmes was diabolical and he would have found a way to create this horror even if he did not have access to guns. Hickenlooper says Holmes would have used explosives, poisonous gas or some other method to create the terror.

source

 

[IndianaHiker]

Would say I agree with Gov. Hickenlooper on this.

 

[IndianaHiker]

Ppine and Indiana?? Provided Jason's statistics between Washington DC and Vermont are accurate (and I would guess they are very accurate) what is your take on that big of difference? Does an armed society curb violent behavior or do you think it is because urban people are more violent than rural or is it because the high density of blacks in DC are more violent than the high density of whites in Vermont? Just curious as to your take on this. Maybe from your views we can determine why violent crime jumped 600 % in Australia when the law abiding turned in their guns.

And Indiana, I do respect your decision to not carry the responsibility of doing bodily harm to others. It is a hard decision to have to knowingly shoot to kill another human.

Have to think that the differences in socioeconomic status would also have to do with the difference in the two areas.

 

[oldsarge]

Agreed PPine think CozINCowtown is a great person as good person as well. Not sure that I agree that lose of personal freedom or any form of gun control caused this tragedy. Had this discussion with a guy I work with. He is of the opinion that everyone should carry a firearm. Personally I wont carry here some of the reasons why.

1st If I feel so threatened that I need to carry then I don't want to be a part of that society. I have last all personal freedoms, and since of security and don't want to part of that world. Take me out know I am done with it and ready to leave.

2nd I don't want the added irresponsibility in my life. The thought that I may use a firearm and take someones life is something that I am not willing to take on. Yes could be a situation where it could save me but could also be a situation where an accidental discharge, or a mistake in target ID causes collateral damage.

3rd I am not willing to put forth the time and money to maintain the proficiency that I feel is needed to carry and deal with a stressful situation. Colorado is a perfect example of this. Cant imagine trying to get a clear shot off in that situation. Darkened room, smoke, lots of movement, high adrenal, and being shot at with by a weapon with a high rate of fire. I personally am not trained to deal with that situation. I have a friends in law enforcement and a couple are weapons trainers. One was a trainer for Air Force Special Ops and trained SEAR and snipers. He once told me that even a shooter trained as a typically law enforcement officer looses 70% of his accuracy in high stress situations.

Now that being said if you want to carry and do so in a safe manner go for it. I would never vote for a law to take that away from you. However it is not something that I want to do.

I respect your decisions and reasoning not to carry. I would never argue with a person as to why I or others think they should carry. I would never try to convince a person to do so. That's irresponsible! My concern is that after every shooting, the topic come up to do away with guns. Every one is looking for some kind of immediate answer to solve this problem. There is none, plain and simple.

Your friend is correct about loosing 70% of accuracy in stressful situations. The same goes for the other shooter, believe me! We can't look at one incident and draw a conclusion. Every incident is different. Who remembers this? Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. There was a woman there who had a permit to carry a firearm. In her interview she clearly stated that she had a clear shot and could have ended the shooting and saved lives if she had not left her hand gun in her car. If I'm not mistaken she lost her Father in that shooting.

I don't feel everyone should carry, I feel that everyone who has the desire to should be allowed. That is only after the proper training is received.

 

[oldsarge]

Can you please explain to me, why above almost any other topic, this one produces rants in people? Thanks.

Maybe because nobody was ever dumb enough to try and outlaw cars because people are killed in hit and runs. Close down all bars and restrict alcohol because people drink and drive. Look how hard it is to get people to stop texting while driving, there are laws against it but clearly nor working. I say get rid of the cell phones! How dumb is that.

I don't think that in the recent shooting a person with a gun would have made much of a difference. This idiot did his homework and planned his attack well. He created shock and confusion. In all reality there should have been many more killed with what he had. I'm glad he was as inept as he was.

 

[Lorax]

I'll add to Oldsarge's comment by saying that if you look at recent events where many people are massacred, and we have to call it just that,a massacre, it is usually in an area that is designated a "gun free zone".

These people who commit these atrocities look for and target "gun free zones". They do it without fear knowing the law abiding citizen will be unarmed.That's how cowards think.

Indianahiker, I respect your decision not to carry. It's a burden, it's a pain in the butt, it ****es me off that places I used to go without worry I now worry about and I really wish I didn't have to resort to carrying around a live firearm because you never know what you'll walk into. I despise living on the defensive even in a semi-rural atmosphere here. I don't carry all the time and dread when I feel I should do so. Legal carrying of a concealed weapon a very heavy decision. It's got to be right for you. 14 years ago, even with a permit, I never carried. 10 years ago, I carried on occasion. now I carry more often.

 

[Grandpa]

Few years ago, a guy walked into Trolley Square Mall in Salt lake City with a shotgun and a bag of shells. He just started walking through shooting anything that moved. He was finally stopped by a guy with a concealed even though it was also a no carry area. Even after the perp was down, it took the LEO's about a half hour as they first blocked off the area then waited for the "assault" troops to arrive. It turned out both the citizen and his wife were carrying, were from another city, and he was an off duty policeman from that other city. The perp still had about 80 shells left in his bag so without a citizen carrying, it could have been much worse.

 

[dinosaur]

There is the answer I was looking for. Grandpa, thank you.

This tragedy was perpetrated by a very intelligent man. His tactics and choice of site were perfect. The only person who could have made a difference would have been one very close to him. And the difference would have been only a lessening of the ultimate damage. Some would still have died.

 

[HikerJoe]

Correct me if I am wrong. Colorado allows concealed carry. But, if a private business doesn't allow it as they should then that's their choice. I believe the theater had a no weapons policy posted.

 

[CozInCowtown]

Correct me if I am wrong. Colorado allows concealed carry. But, if a private business doesn't allow it as they should then that's their choice. I believe the theater had a no weapons policy posted.

Then the theatre should have asked that guy to leave, eh??

 

[Greatoutdoors]

Hiker, the whole community of Aurora does not allow for concealed carry or even for a loaded weapon in your vehicle. Hopefully, they will rethink that decision very soon. I saw an interesting comparison about guns in the comments section on an article. "Guns kill people like forks make people fat". I haven't heard anybody propose a ban on forks yet...

 

[Grandpa]

Guns kill people like pencils misspell words

A gun has two enemies, rust and politicians

 

[IndianaHiker]

Hiker, the whole community of Aurora does not allow for concealed carry or even for a loaded weapon in your vehicle. Hopefully, they will rethink that decision very soon. I saw an interesting comparison about guns in the comments section on an article. "Guns kill people like forks make people fat". I haven't heard anybody propose a ban on forks yet...

I need to lose 20 lbs. Maybe I should boycott forks. Start using chopsticks. I couldn't shovel the food in my face as fast with those.
:tinysmile_tongue_t:

 

[jason]

I need to lose 20 lbs. Maybe I should boycott forks. Start using chopsticks. I couldn't shovel the food in my face as fast with those.
:tinysmile_tongue_t:

You would still have spoons. And they are used for ice cream. :tinysmile_twink_t:

 

[oldsarge]

You would still have spoons. And they are used for ice cream. :tinysmile_twink_t:

So that's where I'm going wrong!

 

[dinosaur]

Correct me if I am wrong. Colorado allows concealed carry. But, if a private business doesn't allow it as they should then that's their choice. I believe the theater had a no weapons policy posted.

This just proves the point that Lorax made. The law abiding didn't carry into the theater. This allows the wolf to kill the sheep.

I'd like to elaborate more on the subject but I have to get out of here. I'm driving to Illinois to take all of Sarge's spoons away from him. I'm planning on leaving him chopsticks to eat his ice cream.

 

[Pathfinder1]

Hi...


WOW...forks? WOW...spoons...who knew...?!?

 

[ChadTower]

The difference between VT and DC isn't gun control. It's population density. VT has ~600k people dispersed over an entire state with mountains all over the place. They live in a heavily forested area. They are farmers and naturalists and fiercely independent by nature. People in DC are crammed in like sardines, the cost of living is artificially super high, and by the nature of DC they are all dependent on the gov't in some manner. Employment, housing, welfare, etc. The gov't is the primary employer in Washington DC.

Vermont: Dispsersed, self reliant, personally empowered.
DC: Dependent, densely populated, disempowered.

The difference in violent crime between VT and DC is not gun control. It's completely cultural and I suspect the difference in gun control is misleading.

 

[oldsarge]

This just proves the point that Lorax made. The law abiding didn't carry into the theater. This allows the wolf to kill the sheep.

I'd like to elaborate more on the subject but I have to get out of here. I'm driving to Illinois to take all of Sarge's spoons away from him. I'm planning on leaving him chopsticks to eat his ice cream.

Looking forward to seeing you. It may take me a while to answer the door, I'm polishing off the rest of the ice cream.

 

[Lamebeaver]

Hiker, the whole community of Aurora does not allow for concealed carry or even for a loaded weapon in your vehicle. Hopefully, they will rethink that decision very soon. I saw an interesting comparison about guns in the comments section on an article. "Guns kill people like forks make people fat". I haven't heard anybody propose a ban on forks yet...

Greatoutdoors,

I've seen some articles stating this to be the case, but I don't believe it's true. I work in Aurora, on a university campus no less and we are allowed to carry concealed weapons with a permit. This right was upheld by the Colorado Supreme court earlier this year.

I'm pretty sure that the "loaded weapon in vehicle" law would also not stand up in court if you had a concealed weapon permit. The people claiming you cannot carry a concealed weapon in Aurora are piecing these laws together out of context.

Now the theater does have a prohibition on concealed weapons, as allowed by Colorado law, so the whole debate is a moot point.